Llewellin Setter Registration
English Setters as well as Llewellin Setters were originally registered in the first dog registry ever created and was one of the first breeds ever registered in the Kennel Club 'KC' registry. Mr. Llewellin registered all his dogs in the Kennel Club registry. They were the first registry to recognize Mr. Llewellin's Setters by only allowing the name Dashing Bondhu used on English Setters with pure Dashing Bondhu pedigrees.
When the first Llewellin Setters were imported to the US, they were so superior over all other pointing breeds, including all previous English Setter lines, that many unethical English Setter breeders started to call their Setters "Llewellins" in order to capitalize on the name. Many even started to claim their Setters were Llewelin's even if they had nothing to do with Mr. Llewellin's breeding program. In fact many simply started calling all field Setters or hunting Setters "Llewellin Setters" regardless of their bloodlines.
It became so corrupted, that in 1902, Field Dog Stud Book 'FDSB' felt it was necessary to register those of pure Llewellin blood as "Llewellin Setters" recognizing them as a separate BREED. FDSB recognized only Setters that traced back to Duke - Rhoebe - Laverack strains as Llewellin Setters, but these also allowed Setters that Mr. Llewellin had nothing to do with, as long as they were of only the Duke and/or Rhoebe and Laverack bloodlines without any other English Setter strains, they were registered as Llewellin Setters. They completely disregarded if Mr. Llewellin had bred them or not and still used his name WITHOUT HIS PERMISSION. They never considered the fact that Mr. Llewellin had only selected certain individual Field Champion Setters that were of superior genetics and allowed any Setters with those three bloodlines regardless were they came from.
Unfortunately, over the years the Llewellin Setter recognition as a separate breed was gradually changed in FDSB and they are no longer recognized as a "separate breed" today, but are now only given the "distinction" of being a line of English Setter and not a "recognized breed" of it's own in FDSB. FDSB has them listed within the English Setter breed and no longer gives them the full recognition they deserve.
It is mine and other top Llewellin Setter owner's and breeder's opinion's that because of this loose definition, FDSB has encouraged Llewellin Setter's to be continually out-crossing with English Setters with the intention of destroying the Llewellin Setter gene pool until their is not enough pure Llewellin Setters left to continue to recognize them any longer.
In fact, it's my opinion that their past policies have nearly resulted in the extinction of pure Llewellin Setter's. In fact many imported Setters were approved by FDSB to be registered as "Llewellin Setters" for many years and generations, only for the "sole owner" of FDSB without any form of appeal, changed his mind and changed the dogs and their offspring's registrations to English Setters. This was done after many years of great sacrifices, large investments of money, and many breedings with other Llewellin Setters and years of advertising them had already taken place. I truly believe the intent was that those approved would be crossed with all Llewellin Setters over time and cause the end of their distinction and eliminate the distinction and register them all as English Setters.
Only by the grace of God and the dedication of a few great Llewellin breeder's like our good friends Al and Drenda King of King Llewellin Kennel, did the Llewellin Setter survive FDSB policies and the popularity of the big running trail era that they promoted by them and until the Llewellin Setter's substantial come back in the 1990's. As in the past when foot hunting types of dogs and dogs that are as much mans best friend as well as great hunting dogs are preferred again, the Llewellin Setter is once again the leader and best suited dog for the job.
When I first registered a dog with FDSB, I was astounded by two things. One was the disgraceful use of selling space on registration forms to advertise dog food companies, etc.. Everything I received was covered in advertisements. It was my personal opinion that money played a major roll in that registry and not the accuracy of paper work or the betterment of the breeds they registered. No wonder FDSB lost most other hunting breeds of dogs to other registries over the years. In fact, we had always maintained AKC papers on our German Shorthair's and considered FDSB for the big running Field Trial strains and breeds of bird dogs. It's also my understanding that FDSB are charging double what the DNA test actually costs them, and have made owner's waste their money on DNA testing dogs when they already knew fully well they didn't have the parents DNA to compare their dogs with.
Interesting enough, they have register the same Setters as English Setters without DNA testing. It's my opinion that this proves FDSB true intent to eliminate the Llewellin Setter as a breed by requiring DNA only for "Llewellin Setters" and registering the same dogs in question without DNA as English Setters. If they were actually seeking accurate registration, and a dogs parents are truly in question then the dog parents should be checked regardless what breed it is and not just simply register as English Setters if they are not DNA tested.
The second was as long as I can remember, FDSB NEVER required litter registration of each litter of the dogs they registered. They allow breeders to simply hand write individual puppy application forms for each puppy in a litter, adding pups when ever a set of papers were wanted or lost. It seemed to me that without fundamental registration checks and balances like litter registration to record the number of pups born, their sexes, colors, and dates of births of each litter accurately, the door was left wide open for human error, fraud, and corruption to say the least. In fact, any breeder could have basically manufacture false or extra papers at anytime, using these FDSB policies. The Lord only knows how many of these self written puppy papers are out floating around and exchanging hands at dog trading events, etc.. All the DNA parenting being done today will not make false pedigrees of generations ago correct.
Example: If a Setter was found, purchased, or even stolen without papers, or not of pure breeding, all a breeder would have to do is fill out another puppy paper form a litter they had long ago or could even make up a litter that their dogs never had to come up with a set of papers for them. In fact with the value of pure Llewellin Setters being 2-3 times that of English Setters, what are the odds of someone manufacturing Llewellin Setter papers for the English Setters they also had. In fact it is interesting that some well established English Setter Kennels, suddenly had kennels full of Llewellin Setters and claimed they had them for many, many years. These same dogs can today pass DNA parenting tests, because no one is making them go back several generations when the phenomenon happened.
How many dog dealers would have taken advantage on being able to by local English Setters litters at $100-$200 a pup and turn around double or triple their investment by selling them as FDSB "Llewellin Setters".
FDSB has acknowledged having serious problems with faulse papering and in 2001 they started randomly testing DNA parenting and in 2004 made it mandatory on ALL "Llewellin Setters", but DNA samples are only as accurate and as honest as the person taking the DNA sample, and the purity of the sample. To my knowledge they still do not require a vet take the DNA or to micro chip, tattoo, or even supply photos of the dog for identification. They are leaving lots of room for fraud, cover up, and even paved a way for someone to frame a reputable breeder who they are jealous of. A DNA sample could easily be contaminated with another dogs DNA resulting in no match with one or both of the dogs recorded parents. I believe this has already happened in an attempt to defame a top Llewellin Breeder.
It is also my opinion that FDSB efforts are way too late and a dollar short. It is my opinion that ethical registries would not be using DNA testing for profit, which is what is happening in FDSB and AKC for that matter. We recognized the possibilities of a problem the first time we registered a dog with FDSB in 1996. It can never undo all possible years of paper hanging on the old American Llewellin lines and years of these hand written unrecorded FDSB puppy papers that are still floating around or possibly being manufactured even today. Some being sent in for registration, long after the breeder or the dogs parents have passed away to be verified.
This does not even address that all true hunters know what AKC shows and pet shop puppy mills have done to all the hunting breeds in general and what the FDSB big running field trails have done for the foot hunting bird dogs. It is my personal opinion that FDSB did as much damage to the foot hunting bird dog breeds, resulting in high strung, bull headedness, the need for shock collars, tracking collars, requiring professional training, uncontrollable types of bird dogs, that will never make a natural foot hunting companion house pet.
In fact when I raised German Shorthair Pointers for 8 generations in the 1970's to the 90's we could see first hand how fast the FDSB trails were ruining our breed for the foot hunter and it did not take long for us to see German Shorthair's that looked and acted "just like" English Pointers with docked tails. It is my personal opinion that anyone could see that someone had out-crossed them with English Pointers or even docking some pure English pointer's and registering them as GSHP's just to win some Field Trails. It soon resulted in dedicated GSHP breeder's like myself having to import new trusted stock directly from Germany in an effort to purchase pure, quality, foot hunting type GSHP's, that looked and acted like what a German Shorthair Pointer were suppose to look and act like.
To be honest, I feel the same way about the Dashing Bondhu Llewellin Setter's. While the FDSB breeder's were breeding and crossing the early imports, known as the American lines, the Dashing Bondhu's were being bred in England for over 88 years by Mr. Llewellin and Mr. Humphrey and even another 30+ years in Ireland by Fr. Brannon in 1988. Also, imports from Belgium of pure Dashing Bondhu blood as late as 1994 resulting in these imports being the very last trusted Llewellin Setter bloodlines imported.
Please keep in mind that very few breeder's have kept the last imported Dashing Bondhu's pure so that only leaves a few of the most knowledgeable Llewellin Setter breeder's with them today. We don't own any other breeds or strains of bird dogs, nor do we buy to sell or trade bird dogs, or offer professional training.
International Progressive Breeders' Alliance
(Internationally recognized breeders' alliance and all-breed dog registry)
This is why in 1996, we decided to register all our dogs with the International Progressive Dog Breeders' Alliance 'IPDBA'. We did this long before FDSB tried to fix their many problems. The reasons were many, but the main reason was that IPDBA has always fully recognized "Llewellin Setters" as a completely separate unique breed of Setter, not just a line of English Setter encouraging breeder's to cross the two breeds. Also, because IPDBA is the only registry designed to improve and address each breeds unique faults and has always required litter registration as ALL other reputable Registries always have done. They also required a color photo of every dog they register minimal.
They are the ONLY registries who gives the Breed Charter's full control over their breeds future by allowing them to set up each breeds unique registration requirements. That's right, the National Llewellin Setter Association 'NLSA' has set up the Llewellin Setter's registering requirements and has full control over their breeds future in IPDBA, not IPDBA.
The rules for ALL Setter breeds are three clear color photo's, a microchip, and a tattoo for identification of each and every Setter IPDBA registers, thus eliminating the possibilities of transferring papers from one Setter to another Setter. DNA parenting is also available at cost, but not mandatory as there has never been a complaint filed against an IPDBA breeder, NEVER!
There has been some slandering spread that IPDBA registered Setters that had questionable parents and DNA problems found in FDSB's Setters. This is simply not true. No dogs that have been in question in FDSB of having wrong parents, were EVER allowed for registration in IPDBA.
In fact, just the opposite is true, all dogs of questionable breeding have been barred from registration in IPDBA, while they are still being used in many FDSB Llewellin Setter breeding programs today.
IPDBA is also the FIRST and ONLY all-breed dog registry offering a "Gun Dog Certification" program. Gun Dog Certification means that the dog has been inspected and Certified to hunt, point, retrieve, and back (honor another pointing dog). It is the best way for everyone who breeds pointing dogs to prove each and every dog they own has the natural instinct and trainability to do what they have been bred to do. Gun Dog Certification separates the puppy mills and profiteers from the serious hunter's who breed to improve and preserve their dogs. All someone needs to do is look at an IPDBA pedigree and they can see for sure that the sire, dam, and maybe even the grand sire, grand dam, etc. of their pup are Gun Dog Certified or not. Each will have "GDC" in front of their name and the dogs complete name will be highlighted in red on their IPDBA pedigree.
In fact Mountain View Kennel has taken the IPDBA Gun Dog Certification Pledge that Every Llewellin Setter in Mountain View Kennel will be "Gun Dog Certified" before they are used for breeding. There won't be ANY brood females spending their lives stuck in kennels pumping out pups at Mountain View Kennel. Of course this means that we have a lot of Gun Dog Certified Setters, but we are not the only ones who have Certified our dogs. Anyone who can register their pointing dog with IPDBA can apply for Gun Dog Certification.
All our dogs are also members of our family and our personal pleasure foot hunting gun dogs and are hunted regularly. It has been scientifically proven that hunting females during pregnancy produce far better quality and more easily trainable pups. We had always believed this, but it now has been scientifically and chemically proven to be true. Pups out of hunted mothers during pregnancy, have healthier pups and can handle adrenaline better when they are hunted. Hunting our dogs while pregnant is also probably why in over the 40 years we have been breeding hunting dogs, we have never had to have a C-section performed or have lost a female delivering pups and maintain a high percentage of 98% "Natural Hunting Dogs".
Mountain View Kennel was also the first Llewellin Kennel to register it's kennel name with IPDBA. The late OLN's Hank and his son Dash are both IPDBA registered Llewellin Setters and are Gun Dog Certified. Mountain View Kennel, King's Llewellin Kennel, as well as many other top Llewellin Kennels are all registering their great Llewellin Setters with IPDBA.
In fact IPDBA has quickly become so well respected among Llewellin Setter Breeders, that the NATIONAL LLEWELLIN SETTER ASSOC., the oldest Llewellin Setter organization in the world became the official IPDBA Llewellin Setter Breed Charter and has complete control over the breeds future and registration requirements.
Please note that it is estimated that 99% of all pure Dashing Bondhu Llewellin Setters being produced today around the world are now registered with the International Progressive Dog Breeders' Alliance 'IPDBA' and not with FDSB. It is my opinion that it is impossible for any kennel to maintain a large healthy gene pool of pure Dashing Bondhu Llewellin Setter's today without using those registered with IPDBA.
Also, the majority of all other Llewellin Setters of pure bloodline breeding, like of pure Blizzard, pure Roycelle, pure Gladstone, pure Bomber, and pure Tony'O bloodlines, just to name a few are being registered with IPDBA. While the majority of setters being cross bred are still registered with FDSB. These cross bred Setters are sure to be carriers of every gentic fault ever found in the Llewellin Setter breed.
IPDBA recognizes over 500 pure bred dog breeds today making it the largest ALL breed International dog registry in the world to recognize the "Llewellin Setter" as a unique separate breed and also recognizes the "Russian Llewellin Setter" as unique separate breed of Setter. They are NOT "Llewellin Setters", they are "Russian Llewellin Setters".
To our knowledge, IPDBA is the first and only registry to even offer "Gun Dog Certification" to all their bird dog breeds. Please note, that IPDBA does not mandate registration requirements for any breed. That is left totally up to the IPDBA Breed Charter of each breed. The National Llewellin Setter's AssociationTM setup all registration requirements for the Llewellin Setter and Russian Llewellin Setter breeds, not IPDBA and NLSA does not require DNA parenting, OFA or Gun Dog Certification at this time. They have required for several years that all Setter breeds be microchiped, tattooed, and have three color photos of each side and front to be IPDBA registered. This assures the identity of each Setter and makes it nearly impossible to false paper any IPDBA registered Setter.
DNA parenting, OFA (Hip) certification remains a owner/breeder option and IPDBA offers to record them right on the dogs registration papers for NO EXTRA FEES! IPDBA does not benefit from DNA either as does FDSB and AKC.
Many Llewellin Kennels today realize that they can dual register their Llewellin Setters with AKC, IPDBA and FDSB.
Current IPDBA Fees for Llewellin Setters are as follows:
Transfer from other recognized registries ........................$15.00
Litter Registration of Registered Dam and Sire ...............$10.00
Permanent Registration from blue Puppy papers ............$10.00
Permanent Registration & 5 generation Pedigree ............$20.00
5 generation Pedigree purchased separately ....................$15.00
Duplicate copies of registration papers ..............................$ 5.00
Gun Dog Certification inspection fee ................................$25.00
Life-Time Kennel name registration ..................................$50.00
First time Kennel Specials available for first time transfers. For information contact IPDBA or go to their websites.
PO Box 311
Upton, KY 42784
The National Llewellin Setter's Association may make changes to their breeds registration requirements at any time they feel a change is needed to best preserve, improve, or protect the Llewellin Setter and/or the Russian Llewellin Setter breeds in IPDBA.
When you read in publications and websites claiming a Llewellin Setter is not a breed, they DON'T know what they are talking about. The Llewellin Setter has been recognized as a separate breed since 1902, long before many other breeds have come into existence. Even though there are Setter breeds that allow Llewellin Setters to be out-cross to improve them, the Llewellin Setter NEVER allows any out-crosses what so ever, not to an English Setter or even a Russian Llewellin Setter is allowed or has ever been allowed in IPDBA.
Our thirty eight years of genetic research and breeding gun dogs tells us that strains should not be crossed with each other. Crossing strains results in a genetic hybrids. They could genetically be the same as crossing two different breeds. Even though some good dogs may be produced in the initial hybrid cross, most will not continue to produce well in the 2nd, 3rd, and future generations once they have been outcrossed. There is no consistency when crossing different strains, because their genetic sequences are different and won't match with any certainty. This is why many breeder's sell crossed pups knowing that the pups they produce are not likely to produce as well for the buyer. That's right, just like with hybrid corn, you can get a good crop on the first planting, but not if you try and plant their seeds and God only knows what recessives are being carried.
At Mountain View Kennel, we offer the same quality and pure Dashing Bondhu bloodlines to everyone regardless who you are and they will produce as good a pups as ours if they are bred to the same standards and quality of pure Dashing Bondhu bloodlines.
International Progressive Dog Breeders' Alliance
There seems to be a lot of misinformation around on the internet about IPDBA. Some try to make it sound as if they are not pushing any agenda and just reporting facts about IPDBA, but their facts are completely wrong and they have never contacted IPDBA for any, so they are simply trying to misrepresent IPDBA to the public, so you do not know the facts. IPDBA is in the process of taking legal action against anyone who will spread misinformation willingly or unwillingly and has sent out letters for corrections. Lets start with some false claims found on the internet and compare them to the facts.
Claim #1. IPDBA came about after FDSB started DNA testing in 2001 and DNA scandals.
Fact #1. IPDBA was founded in 1996 by 11 founders (only 2 owned Llewellin Setters) and IPDBA recognized and registered "Llewellin Setters" and litters of "Llewellin Setters", in it's very first year and had the strictest registration requirements in all the dog world for them for many years. They required that ALL Breeds of Setters including "Llewellin Setters" be first microchip, tattooed and submit three clear color photos (face and both sides of body) to be permanently registered with them. DNA parenting has always been available at cost in IPDBA.
These IPDBA requirements and options were all in place, long before FDSB started their DNA testing and finding several dogs in THEIR registry of wrong parenting. They later singled out the Llewellin Setter for profit and made DNA a permanent requirement for ONLY the Llewellin Setter a "strain of English Setter" in their registry. Always, offering the option to avoid DNA testing costs of $40 per pup and both parents by registering them as "English Setters" instead in FDSB.
A litter of 8 pups plus the 2 parents would cost $400.00 in DNA testing, with half the money being kept by FDSB. Plus all registration fees. This has caused hundreds of smaller breeder's to simply register their Llewellin Setters as English Setters and many larger breeder's to leave FDSB and register their Setters with IPDBA. IPDBA offers DNA testing at cost and prints the results on the back of their registration papers for FREE.
IPDBA was told that by the DNA comapany that they would give IPDBA the same deal it gives FDSB and give a 50% kick back. FDSB charges $40.00 for DNA and gets a kick back of $20.00 for each dog and pup, making a profit from Llewellin Setter owners, never mind their high registration fees. So if FDSB would not profit from DNA, the cost would be only $20.00 per pup/dog.
Claim #2 IPDBA registered dogs from the FDSB DNA scandals.
Fact #2. IPDBA NEVER registered any dogs involved in the FDSB DNA scandals. These scandals were caused because of FDSB poor registration policies, within FDSB, allowing breeder's to hand write puppy papers without requiring litter registration and ALL the DNA testing in the world can ever correct false papers from years ago. It can only prove their parents today. All dogs of false pedigree are banned from registration in IPDBA, but are still registered in FDSB.
Claim #3 King's Llewellin Kennel started IPDBA.
Fact#3 The King's did not register their Llewellin Setters with IPDBA until 2002 and had NOTHING to do with it's founding. They nor anyone related to them were of the 11 founders who created IPDBA in 1996. In fact, it's original founding had NOTHING to do with Llewellin Setters.
Claim #4 Russian Llewellin Setters are registered as Llewellin Setters in IPDBA.
Fact #4. The Russian Setters were approved by FDSB to be registered as a "Llewellin Setter" strain of English Setter for several years before they were then disallowing and forced to be registered as "English Setters" only. All offspring from Llewellin Setters that were bred to them must now be registered as English Setters in FDSB.
On the other hand, IPDBA NEVER approved the Russian Setters to be registered as "Llewellin Setters". The Russian Setters were given special breed recognition and new breed status in IPDBA and have always been and will continue to be registered as a separate breed known as a "Russian Llewellin Setter", and NOT as a "Llewellin Setter". The breeding of a "Llewellin Setter" with a "Russian Llewellin Setter" can NEVER be registered as a "Llewellin Setter" in IPDBA. Cross breeding either breed with an English Setter will result in the pups being registered as "English Setters".
Claim #5. Serious breeder's should only purchase FDSB register Llewellin Setters if they want to breed into the future.
Fact #5. Majority of pure strains of Llewellin Setters (All six American and the Bondhu and Advie) are now registered with IPDBA, NOT with FDSB. Breeder's are quickly finding out that it is becoming more and more difficult to maintain FDSB gene pool of pure Llewellin Setter strains, when hundreds of their FDSB Llewellin Setters are either now being registered as English Setters to avoid high DNA testing costs in FDSB or are being registered with IPDBA now as "Llewellin Setters" to maintain the pure strains. If you are interested in breeding pure strains of the purest "Llewellin Setters, the future of a healthy breed is with IPDBA, not in FDSB. Not to mention the fact that IPDBA registered dogs have always demanded higher prices since their beginnings, because of their higher registration standards. Just because FDSB started DNA dogs today, does not fix all the problems their policies have caused in the past.
Claim #6. The majority of IPDBA registered dogs are not eligible to hunt in Field Trails.
Fact #6. Since NSTRA registration requirements are the same as IPDBA, IPDBA breeder's have been informed by NSTRA that ALL the Llewellin Setters registered in IPDBA are eligible for NSTRA registration, if the breeder's will give them the same required information. We also know that the large majority have been dual registered with NSTRA already, making the overwhelming majority fully eligible to enter in NSTRA events. Not to mention that many in IPDBA and NLSA are working toward having Foot Hunting Pointing Dog Trails in the near future.
We personally do not support NSTRA at this time and do not provide NSTRA papers with our Setters. We do support IPDBA Foot Hunting Trails in the future.
Other facts you should know about IPDBA:
Fact #7. Each Breed Charter has 100% control over it's breed. As with ALL breeds, each has unique problems and strong points. Each Breed Charter creates it's unique rules for registration, using the registry to make their breed better and eliminating the problems in their breed within IPDBA. The results are IPDBA producing the better dogs, demanding higher prices, attracting the best breeder's, etc., and improving their breeds for generations to come. No forcing of registration policies that have not been approved by the Breed Charter.
Fact #8. IPDBA has a Board of Directors, that are made up from each President from each Breed Charter, giving each breed association an equal voice and each individual an appeal process among it's peers and not an owner or owner's of a registry dictating things without allowing ANY appeal process, like was done in FDSB to Llewellin Breeder's.
Fact #9 IPDBA was founded by award winning dog breeders who wanted more from a registry than just keeping pedigree records. These founder's realized that no matter what they did to improve their breed in their kennels, it was undone by other breeder's in their registry. The founder's realized that if the registry enforced the same requirements and certifications throughout the whole breed, the "BREED" could be truly IMPROVED and not just the dogs in one breeder's kennel. As genetic testing for genetic problems become available in the future of dog breeding, IPDBA breeders' will have the best tools to enforce genetic testing them BREED WIDE through each breed's unique IPDBA registration requirements. Each IPDBA breed association charter will make their unique requirements for their unique breed, resulting in eliminating all genetic faults FOREVER in their breed!
Fact #10 IPDBA has attracted the most knowledgable breeder's with outstanding breeding stock for their breed. This has quickly resulted in IPDBS already having by far the best genetically sound dogs in each breed it is registering today, assuring the public, they are getting the best quality pups found no where else in the world.
THE FUTURE OF ALL DOG BREEDING IS WITH IPDBA!!
All our Llewellin Setters are permanently identified with registered AVID® microchips,
Tattooed, and are DNA swabbed for
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All documents, photographs and graphics are Copyright © 1996-2011 Mountain View Kennel. Background painting of Dashing Blaze Bondhu, pure Dashing Bondhu Llewellin Setter dedicated in her loving memory.